Fairy Tail, Chapter 516: The Truth About Enchantment
Well, last chapter was somewhat interesting, if for the long discussion in the comments about how valid torture is as a storytelling method, as well as various discussions about just how inconsistent and badly-written Fairy Tail is. I didn't have the time to properly reply to every comment and probably won't for now, but I've read all of it, and I can't lie... it's the best read relating to Fairy Tail that I've felt since... well, a couple of years now. Funny how entertaining discussing a piss-poor series can be.
Anyway, this chapter didn't really quite carry the amount of interest that the previous chapter did. It's just various repetitions of Erza going "I will fight people who gets in my guild's way" and Eileen going "I don't care about you, daughter of mine!" Eileen makes explosions. Erza charges in with panels that's sure to show off her ass and the weird bunny-tail that this particular armour fetish outfit has. Wendy contributes a little. Some talk about how Grandeeney has suppressed the dragon seed with the whole antibody anticlimax plot from before.
We then get a three-page long recap by "Igneel" to Natsu in the weird dreamscape world, and apparently Natsu also has a 'Demon Seed' that's trying to merge with the Dragon Seed and Natsu is dying. Yes! Best news I've heard all week.
Eileen then turns any discussion about her being a character and not a plot device irrelevant by, well, just recapping some more before roaring "THAT'S NOT FAIR". Yeah, irrelevant of whether she's tortured for years, or lost her sense of humanity through torture or lack of senses or just the actions of a single human... she's just a huge plot device at this point with less personality than an object. Some nonsense enchantment-creating and enchantment-cancelling nonsense that would probably actually look cool if I actually know what the rules surrounding 'Deus Zero' and 'Deus Eques', because it's just glowing shit around Erza and apparently Wendy is awesome.
Apparently Eileen failed to 'enchant' herself into Erza's fetus body because they are family, which... doesn't make sense, because you'd think family would be more compatible, but apparently Eileen just enchanted herself into Wendy's body, basically possessing her.
Yeah. Erza's going to win Wendy back with a friendship speech. What a boring fight. What a boring villain.
a big bad posses a loli and is finally beaten by a friendship speech.all of that make me remember a much better series (i miss kumagawa).and really, all of that make just acnologia ba( or hiro do that for the "in reality i was not evil" that i see a twelve light-year ).
ReplyDeleteand first comment of 2017 i guess
Eh, it's 100% obvious that Zeref's going to do be all sad and friendship and shit, either because of love for Mavis or himself doing some kind of huge heroic sacrifice to save Natsu from the demon/dragon seed induced death. It's telegraphed so obviously that I'd eat my hat if it happened otherwise.
DeleteIt leaves Acnologia as really the only other threat, and considering he apparently just sat with his fingers up his ass after Eileen teleported him around, really all he's having throughout this arc is competence decay.
So 516.... This is a trip. Erza and Wendy are fighting Irene. Irene is not pressing them very hard. I mean Irene should be on this other level and Erza and Wendy are easily pushing her back. God Hiro tried to build her up and she is not impressing. Hey! remember when Erza and Wendy who were exhausted last time we saw them and barely were holding off Irene who is fresh. Well, they are now pushing her back.
ReplyDeleteSo Natsu sees Igneel in his mind. Is this the real Ingeel or is this Natsu's mind making an image of Ingeel. However credit this is the one Guide into the Mind that makes sense. But it is giving information that Natsu should not or could not know which leads me to believe that is a piece of Ingeel. You would think Natsu the guy with big feelings and emotions would have a bigger emotional response to his dead father showing up. or to news, he is fucking dying.
I expected more sadness than Oh I broke my toy. Sullen and maybe dejected is some people reactions but it does not really fit Natsu. Why am I arguing about what fits with Natsu cliched flat character?
Wendy ubercharges Erza and she goes for the final slice. Irene sees wendy skill and she like perfect. and she lets Erza cut her down and here is where the chapter falls apart again.
SO Irene enchants her personality onto wendy. to which she says her magic power has gone down.
Okay. If Irene is so strong why didn't she beat or cripple Erza first then swap bodies? Whether or not She knew about the power decrease it just makes sense to beat or weaken the clear threat before you do something like this so they can't beat you in your weaken state. Do you really need Dragon Slayer Enchanter you couldn't just find a female enchanter? If she could do this at any time why not just die then pretend to be wendy to get the drop on Erza? Can she do this at any range or does she need to be close? Erza you are just going to stand there and let her do it?
Irene is an idiot.
Supposedly, that's because Wendy was using her magic to reinforce and restore Erza and Wendy herself wasn't directly fighting her... plus, Eileen kinda gave them plenty of time to recover, what with how long that monologue/flashback of hers took (which is ironic, considering she was the one who was chastising Zeref for taking his sweet time with winning the war).
DeleteThink it's a mental image like the other dragonslayers were. Supposedly, the Guide's giving him info that he would have known before his memory got blanked out by his death and resurrection as a demon-hybrid. However, Natsu looks like he's kind of already accepted the people he's talking to aren't really "real" - he just wishes his mind would pick a consistent narrator and stick with it.
At the same time, it doesn't really feel like any other reaction would fit Natsu at this point, honestly - yeah it's underwhelming, but Natsu's been pretty solidly illustrated as the guy who will only think on what said heavy revelation means for a few minutes before deciding to charge on against it head-on anyway. I'd honestly be surprised if he had any character-development with potential doubts *now* of all times.
As for Eileen's body-swap... well, if you're talking about Eileen taking Erza's body, that's not possible. As already stated in both the last chapter and this one, she literally *can't* take over Erza's body - not even when Erza was a defenseless baby - for whatever reason, be it acquired immunity to her powers or just having different affinities then her. On the flip-side, arguably the only reason Erza was winning was because Wendy was enchanting her, so losing Wendy's power might very well end off Erza's chances. On the *other* hand, it also kinda plays into what I said in my own comment about Eileen possibly just being too arrogant and ambitious to fully think through the consequences of her own actions before she does it.
DeleteFirst point That dumb because hiro has portrayed Eliene as so strong she is toying wendy and Erza. So strong she could stall Demon dragon guy a feat no one could. No matter what Eilene should not be getting pressed hard she should be pressure them.
Point Two Image is talking about stuff natsu does not know and Natsu has been portrayed as Impulsive. I don't remember him think hard on anything.
I am clearly asking why does not Eliene swap with Wendy after critically hurts Erza.
1 - Not really. Remember, Wendy's reinforcement magic is a combination of magics from both Grendeeny and Porculana/Edolas Grendeeny, so the idea that magic like that could combine with someone as magic-resistant (and possibly immune to Eileen's exact magics) as Erza to create a literal anti-magic tank isn't really all that dumb. And again, Eileen's being tag-teemed, mentally unfocused and didn't take her opponents anywhere near as seriously as she did Acnologia. Plus, by Eileen's own admission, Acnologia *would* in fact have killed her had she not had set up her landscape-rearrangement in advance. Simply put; Eileen followed the way of just about every other FT villain - she got arrogant, underestimated her opponent and let her guard down.
Delete2 - Actually, it's supposedly talking about stuff the original Natsu knew before he died and got made into E.N.D. Memories Natsu would have had back when he was living with Zeref and their birth parents - memories he lost when he died and had to be resurrected. And I never said Natsu thought *heavily/deeply* on it - just that he would only ever stop to contemplate it for a few minutes, if only to try and figure out hard he should try to punch it away XD.
3 - "Clearly" isn't quite the word I would use; you asked why Eileen didn't swap bodies, but you didn't specify the body in question/didn't specify if you thought she should have tried to take Erza after crippling her. And as for why she acted here, I already gave my theory; Eileen, like all FT villains, likely fell victim to impulsive arrogance in thinking that Erza's drained her power, was relying on Wendy and that a little girl's body should be easy pickings - all while forgetting how much vulnerable she'll be from there on out because, again, she's arrogant to the point of thoughtlessness.
Erza doing some impossible things just because WILLPOWER. Also, villain gets built up to be unstoppable... and it turns out that, hey, shitty managing of power levels means that, guess what, Eileen (Irene? Mary? Erzamama? Whatever the fuck you want to call her) ends up feeling not much of a threat. Also, she's not an idiot. She's a plot device. She doesn't have a personality, she acts unnaturally, she doesn't feel like a person -- she's just something to move the drama (as poorly-handled as it is) along.
DeleteI really wished, again, that there's a chapter that detailed how the magic rules in Fairy Tail works. I mean, it's manga and all, but One Piece's got chapters talking about the rules of Devil Fruits, Naruto's got several chapters talking about gen/tai/ninjutsu and the different elements, Tokyo Ghoul's got a chapter talking about the different types of Kagune and their effectiveness and the rock-paper-scissors thing, Bleach had several (inconsistent, as it turns out) chapters talking about the rules of Bankais and Shikais... but Fairy Tail? Really, whatever this Ice Make or Enchantment or Dragon Slaying or whatever magic is just being randomly pulled out of the author's ass that honestly you can make a solid argument as to why Wendy's Enchantment magic SHOULDN'T be able to anti-magic Eileen's or if it is possible.
Also, Eileen is a boring generic FT 'mwahaha evil arrogant will be defeated by friendship' villain, so really, she's going to do some really dumb senseless shit before this is over.
Why would Irene go into a Crippled body.
DeleteIn fact I go on to say she should beat or cripple the clear threat so she do her body swap thing.
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DeleteAgain, she probably assumed Erza was spent and that losing Wendy would clinch it. Plus, Erza's not exactly crippled - just drained and injured, neither of which are irreparable. And once again, Eileen = arrogant beyond belief = doesn't see Erza as a "clear threat."
DeleteOr, alternatively, Eileen is just crazy and not thinking straight. Also badly written. Mostly badly written.
DeleteYeah it is Horrid writing. Really can we stop hand waving bad writing as the character is Crazy or Stupid. Because even if that makes sense the character is just less interesting. Like as CRAZY heath ledger's Joker you did not have to leap through hoops to understand him. He breaks people conviction and morals to prove that world is chaos and order is pipedream.
DeleteThat's just it, though; I *wasn't.* I was just breaking down/making observations on what Eileen's thought process was. When did I ever say said thought process was anything but idiotic - hell, I would have thought my "she's acting impulsively arrogant and doesn't think it through" and "isn't thinking straight because of her world-isn't fair meltdown" bit would have illustrated as much.
DeleteThink of it like this; if you watch someone hit a bear because "they can", and you comment that such is the reason why... how does that equate as trying to justify their actions as intelligent, let alone handwaving the stupidity of it? My sole point was that the progression of Eileen's choices was not hard to understand based on her prior "arrogant to the point of being senseless" behavior, not that said behavior was anything else but idiocy on her part.
I'm sorry sonic, I know I'm ranting a bit here... but what the actual hell is it about how I'm saying this that you and Ryo are somehow mistaking it as an attempt to *defend* Eileen when it's just commenting on what the exact brand and method of (poor) logic it is she's acting on?? Let alone making you think I'm calling her behavior good/interesting writing of all things when I literally made several posts detailing how the only good/interesting thing about Eileen was her backstory as opposed to her characterization/presentation? Did something get lost in translation or is it just something about how I type or present things?
Well I explained my advice again in my other reply but I'll give you something practical.
DeleteWhen you are posting your comment, type like you usually do.
BUT when you are replying to ANOTHER comment here, skip the explanations altogether. Don't worry, we share your conclusions so threw in those instead! Seriously man, the 'TL:DR' of your posts are good enough to get your point across.
But when you go in to explain things, you sorta derail and come off as someone trying to disagree with the other guy's conclusion when in reality, you seem to be only expanding the idea, not rejecting it.
And as I stated before, we want conclusions, we want results, end-points. Doesn't matter how you got there (unless we ask for the explanation), just give us the MONEY, not the details on how you make the earning. Go straight to the point, aim for the neck, take no prisoners.
I hope that this might help. (Though I feel like I overdid it LOL).
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DeleteThat's just it, though; the explanations I give are usually to explain why I dislike something - and the things I dislike the most are when something could have been good but instead gets executed so poorly that it's more aggravating or amusing.
DeleteJust because I perceive the shit FT does with hilarity or chalk the failure up to execution doesn't mean I find it anything else but shit - I'm just acknowledging the parts where it could have worked. If I were disagreeing with someone, I would flat-out *say* so - and have done so in the past, such as when I disagreed that Eileen's backstory was bad just because Eileen's Mary-Sue characterization was. I'm not expanding the idea - I'm *commenting* or *explaining* it with observation. That's not only how you *get* conclusions, results and end-points but also how you get others to see how and why you ended up there - simply put, I make an attempt to actually justify why I dislike something.
Maybe it's just me, but I feel there's just no point in an "aim for the neck, take no prisoners" approach if you can't *justify* it, otherwise everyone will just brand you a "hater" instead of an objective critic and dismiss you when you say something sucks. Seen it happen a million times on YouTube with people who defend FT.
(besides, considering how every time I made a comment with you, you typed something nearly twice as long... it kind of undercuts the point of you trying to lecture about TL;DR posts XD)
Man this is only chapter that made me feel something for Irene....pity. I mean she's a character that came out of no where, has a past of mostly torture by humans and her dragon body, only to have Mashima make her do the stupid childish desperate move of crying how unfair all of it is before she go possess a weaker body mid-battle and prepares to get her ass kicked by another Mary Sue. Mashima just used her as a plot device and will toss her out like trash. Such a disgusting treatment of one's own character.
ReplyDeleteIt would have been much better if it was a cliche'd story of Eileen just being another strong member of Zeref's empire who thought she lost her daughter in an accident but discovering her again might make her consider changing sides or anything. It would have been another overused trope but infinitely better than this crap, had only Mashima depicted it carefully but hey this is Fairy Tail we talking about so whatever.
Now I got a question for ya'll, what is worse? That Mashima makes this shit up accidentally or he actually planned to write this terrible? Because if you remember eariler in this arc, there was a Wendy hugging Erza (in the bathtub) scene where Wendy promise to protect Erza this time. So this whole shit was setup to show Wendy probably overcoming Eileen to protect Erza or make a sacrifice, only to be revived a few chapters later. So this whole terrible fighting sequence and Eileen being a jackass was totally planned. Seriously Mashima just made a character, who was able to handle Acnologia for a while, get her ass cornered by the likes of Erza and WENDY of all people without any explanation. Suddenly you will realize that Acnologia is no longer that intimidating if this is how Mashima handles powerful characters.
And apparently, my overall judgment was right, Spriggans are nothing but over-glorified, huge mana-pools. Mirajane was tripping when she sensed Eileen's power capacity and look at how underwhelming she turned out to be, just like the rest of the 12. Seriously August should just start digging his grave to save whatever little dignity he has right now.
After the love is only pure thing line. August has no dignity left
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DeleteThat same cliche would have set it up for abuse as a plot-device anyway, though - Eileen would have just been another Brandish in that case. Simply put, it would quite possibly have been an even worse direction to take things, considering how Brandish and Lucy's connection resolved itself.
DeleteHonestly speaking, it wasn't that bad a concept to have one of the most morally-steadfast characters be confronted by a parent who turns out to be their total opposite in this series. It got teased with Silver and Gray, though turned out to be an act (or double-act, since Silver pretended to be Deliora at first), but this time the parent genuinely is apathetic to what they did.
At the same time... it's actually not as bad as you said. Remember, Eileen literally said in the last chapter that, for whatever reason, Erza couldn't be affected by Eileen's magic - so it's possible that Erza developed some kind of immunity to Eileen's power while developing in the womb (hell, Erza always seemed to have crazy resistance to most magics). Couple that with Wendy's reinforcement magic and... well, what do you think happens when you add reinforcement power to what's already a walking Deus Ex Machina of a character? Simply put, it's more like Wendy was the battery for Erza, like Illya with Berserker in F/SN - not to mention Eileen kind of started to go through a villainous breakdown and casting magic willy-nilly when Wendy told her how she avoided being dragonized.
Simply put, the issue stems not from Irene's character set-up but from the disconnect between her backstory and her actual behavior. Eileen lost her fight because she broke down, and her breakdown stemmed from the fact that, for all the informed intelligence we've been told about her, she's only ever acted like a scorned and impulsive kid. Maybe she regressed mentally from the trauma or something, but that wasn't detailed enough to make such a thing clear - all we know is that for whatever reason, Eileen arrogant to the point of being overly-whimsical and impulsive, overshadowing any sense of reason we've been told she has... which honestly isn't all that different from Erza (just replace arrogance with idealism/empathy).
Simply put, Eileen's arguably what Erza as a villain would have been personality-wise.
Know it's reposting something I already said, but I think it's best applicable here as well.
ReplyDeleteThis chapter really exemplifies what the flaw of the last chapter was and, in my opinion, the reason that Blackjack couldn't feel compelled to care about Eileen. Even if Eileen's backstory in Chapter 515 was pretty good (especially by FT standards), Chapter 516 reminds us that Eileen herself... isn't enough of a compelling character to really make any sympathy for her stick.
Another example; if Erza was inside her for 400 years, you would think a scientist and enchanter like her would think "hey, this kid that's been in me for centuries may have developed some kind of resistance to dragonization that I can use to develop a cure for my damaged bod" - yet instead, she just casts Erza aside the moment she realizes she can't take her over as a replacement body.
516 compounds the above in how she threw a tantrum after learning how the Dragon-Slayers were able to avoid sharing her fate, her driving motivation apparently being reduced to an "I want my life back" fit. Even moreso when one considers that, after decades of not feeling pain, her getting all those senses back by taking over Wendy's body is more likely to overwhelm her and be a weakness in battle, because - just like casting Erza away - she acts hastily.
The point I'm making is that the above from 515 and the events of 516 illustrate Eileen's biggest character flaw; she's a Mary Sue that, for all her informed ingenuity and power, doesn't actually *do* anything in the here-and-now to validate all her buildup. We're informed that she's supposedly intelligent and inventive, but we don't *see* her make any smart choices and instead see someone that acts without thinking on the self-assurance that "I'm powerful, therefore I'm invincible". For all her *informed* intelligence, power and foresight, we've only ever actually *seen* her act like a reckless kid who's so bloody arrogant and self-assured that she seems to act almost on raw impulse. In that sense, she's not too different from Erza herself, who's own idealism or sense of kindness makes her impulsive and whimsical to the point of senselessness at times as well.
Simply put, it's not that Eileen's backstory or even her setup/outline is bad; it's that how she's actually characterized in the story that makes it fall flat.
I wouldn't call Eileen a 'character'. Or at least present-day Eileen, anyway. I still maintain that the past backstory for Eileen is at least somewhat interesting, but it's so divorced from the arrogant Mary Sue in the present day that it's hard to connect the dots between the two of them. Also, I really refuse to believe anything in Fairy Tail is planned, beyond the broad strokes of the main Natsu/Zeref story. There's too much nonsense that came out of nowhere and seemingly getting pulled out of Mashima's ass (RE: Eileen's whole existence) that it really feels touch-and-go at this point.
DeleteBut again, as I repeat from my reply above... I honestly don't give two shits to Eileen's motivations. She's so bland, boring and badly written that I'm actually better off trying to analyze Happy's character at this point. Agree on all points on the disconnect between Erza's backstory and the present-day characterization, agree that I am definitely not at all compelled to give a shit about Eileen... and really, if the friendship speech happened in the next chapter and Eileen just gets exorcised and we never speak of her again and move to August/Acnologia/Zeref, I would be perfectly happy.
Exactly my point - Eileen's backstory may be better then most FT stuff, but it's basically "tell and don't show"; what it tells us is too disconnected from the Eileen we've been shown up to this point for it to make us sympathize with her. Yes it's interesting, yes it's a bit more inventive (by FT's low standards at least), but the character we see feels like a placeholder that just about any old character could have been put into - nothing really makes the story unique enough to personify it as "Eileen's story" as opposed to just "a tragic story". We're only ever informed of all her ingenuity and power, but never actually see her do anything intelligent or even interesting with that power - we see her act arrogant, act whimsical, act impulsively and have a meltdown (AKA, the same pattern every FT villain seems to go through).
DeleteSimply put, I'm all for just moving along at this point - and since August, Acnologia and Zeref will be the LAST of the enemies left after Eileen goes down (unless Mashima 180's on the anti-climax for Rekhied), it also means we'll be that much closer to what seems like the end of FT. Maybe after August is down, I'll make a set of comments detailing just where each member of the over-hyped Spriggans went wrong just for shits and giggles, but for right now I'm just praying for a quick end to what's becoming an increasingly clusterfucked series.
Okay I'm not looking for a long debate but I'm gonna have to stop you and call you out there Smith Baran.
DeleteWhy are you trying to justify everything so far (in almost every comment I seen so far) if in the end you totally agree with ALL OF US that the whole arc, especially Irene, has been a disappointing ride.
Yes we get it that you look at things with FT's standard but why discuss little details and try to piece things together if the bigger picture isn't worth the effort, (especially since your finally analysis doesn't differ much from ours)? Like yes, by all means, go right ahead if that's your cup of tea but there's not much room for discussion (i.e when you are replying to our comments) if we all are on the same page overall.
That's just it, Ryo; I'm NOT trying to justify Eileen's existence. I'm just pointing out that her being a Mary Sue character-wise doesn't automatically make *everything* having to do with her "garbage" or "shit."
DeleteIn fact, I hate to say this (since it'll probably come across as argumentative), but I feel this situation is reversed; I rather think I should be the one calling you out for trying to take Eileen's poor character as justification to ignore the potential (emphasis on *potential*, not present) merit the outline and backstory had. Her character may be disappointing, but that's no excuse to generalize everything connected to her.
There's a lot of things the series does wrong, and anyone who denies that either hasn't read it, is in denial or just sees it as a guilty pleasure to laugh at. But it's precisely because of that propensity to suck that you have to acknowledge the parts that don't, if only to illustrate how what was done could have worked and is not inherently bad to do. It's precisely because the big picture is made up of little pictures that you can't just brush everything aside when the result doesn't accurately reflect what could have been done with the parts that were present.
I wasn't referring to Eileen specifically but Mashima's writing in general, you have tried to justify holes every time they appeared, where even one of your comments stated that you have to try really really hard to make sense out of all of it.
DeleteI get it, you wanna look at it from every angle and perhaps find what the author really meant, something that those who simply dismiss the series as terrible, may have missed and acknowledge it as a positive point in the writing. But it's not the reader's job to fill up holes in the author's writing, especially when it has more holes than swiss cheese. Unless it's a mystery series, a good author explores to the point where they convey what they wanna say, without relying on readers to pile up theories and explanations.
I used to do this myself in the early arcs of FT but guess what, back then the bigger picture was overall, pretty good. So it was worth it to justify a few problems here and there. Issue now is that the payoff is shit, there is too many points to criticize than to praise, and what IS there now to praise, isn't that great. And suppose e.g, I might find Natsu's reaction to his scarf not being the color of Igneel's scale, funny (despite the fact I criticize him) or how Mashima properly (and finally) explained why DS have motion sickness through Eileen's backstory, the question in the end is that, why should I care now? I can't use these points at all to balance out the current negatives and hence defend FT. And that's the issue, the little 'highs' there are in Mashima's writing right now, are too insignificant to us to care or use to any advantage considering since the general trend in writing at a decline.
When you try to go out of your way to piece together what little sense the story makes, you come off to me as someone trying to glue together pieces of glass from a broken window which the author himself smashed. Again if it was a small hole in the window, I would be with you to patching it up but when the entire window is in pieces, your justification seems to come off as....well being done just for the sake of justification. Which is fine if that's what you enjoy but it seems pretty futile to the rest of us who already know that the payoff is not worth the effort.
Lastly, I would like to present what I just said as sincere advice. Most of us are very capable of presenting Mashima's writing in a more positive way but we tend to look at it for what it is, rather than what it might be. Why? Because past experiences shows it is a mistake to expect much from Mashima and you may present your opinion but trying to reply to our comments, explaining things like e.g why Eileen left her body midbattle, doesn't mean much to us because it's actually Eileen that doesn't mean much to us to begin with. And hence terrible writing as foundation, usually yields....well, more terrible writing. And that leads to another point that, we also differ in standard. What you consider good, is actually shit/garbage and what you consider very good is mediocre to me and so on. Which means that, our points are slippery that they simply won't connect without sliding pass each other. Which is why there isn't much room for discussion, because the standards differ. Might as well simply present your own opinion, without trying to reply to others with counter-points, and call it a day. But again, I'm only advising, and I could be wrong. Perhaps you might make us consider lowering our standards as well but I really doubt it.
What was that about not wanting a long debate, dude? Your comment's *twice* as long as mine XD
Delete1- First off; that's completely untrue. Go back and look at my comments for the past chapters - you'll see I literally tore most of the chapters before this one apart save for a few exceptions where there were some positive merits. Second, that "try really hard to make sense of it" comment was directed to FT's *rules on magic* (or lack thereof as it were), not the plot itself. The issues with the plot are usually bad writing, bad ideas or bad execution of what would normally be decent or passable ideas. Third... you do realize those were all just theories at best done as an example of what *would* have been a good thing to do, rather then an attempt to justify Mashima's lack of any explanations? It wasn't meant to be taken as anything more then conjecture on how *I PERSONALLY* would have done to justify things if I were FT's writer, as opposed to saying what Mashima did was good writing as is.
2 - Well, that's part of it. Another part is just that I just have more fun badly-done works apart to see where it all went wrong, laugh at said failures, look for anything it did right, see if it could have been salvaged and whereat - that's half the reason I usually comment on the garbage chapters or FT in general as opposed to the other series Blackjack does XD. Plus, it's also not the reader's job to *ignore* those things, either - especially not if they're planning to offer any kind of objective commentary on things. Again, I hope it's not crossing a line by saying so... but it honestly feels like a lot of your commentary so far is just hating to hate, rather then hating the parts that are genuinely bad - even if it means ignoring when something actually has either merit or the potential for merit.
3 - Again, I never said Mashima was a good author or that FT in general (or the second half at least) was a good story or that Eileen was a good character - I only said that the general backstory for Eileen was pretty good, or at least compared to FT's normal fare. It's because the overall product turned out so bad that you shouldn't blame anyone else but the author for how they executed it as opposed to blaming every single thing - that'd be like saying Bleach's Arrancar Arc sucked just because of how the Blood-War Arc turned out, which isn't a fair analysis at all. And it's precisely *because* there's "too many points to criticize" that one should note the few things it did right along with the biggest things that went wrong. There being more bad then good is no excuse to ignore the good - that's literally the same as an admission of bias and one-sided judgement in my personal opinion, which can make all judgements based off of it become questionable. Sorry if that's harsh to say, but it's my honest belief.
4 - But that's just it, Ryo; I *DIDN'T* actually do that. At best I made comments on what *I* would have done to explain or justify things if I were FT's writer (half the time being for a joke, for shits and giggles or even just to take a shot at pure objectivity), and acknowledged when FT did something relatively well (which was and still is few and far between). So all in all, I fail to see how acknowledging that Eileen's backstory was good despite her character itself being bad is anything close to even *half* of what you're saying I did, let alone am actively doing - if that were the case, I would have been calling Eileen a good *character* as opposed to saying she just had an interesting backstory. It is literally me just pointing out a few positive elements in a bad story, and saying that an element being part of a bad story doesn't mean said element can't be/have been good. Long story short, I'm not acting "just for the sake of justification" - I'm acting for the sake of objectivity on when there was a good element, which is in and of itself completely different from trying to justify the whole picture. No offense, dude... but I think what you said there was quite honestly the *furthest thing possible* from any of what I did :/
Delete5 - Likewise, I have to point out that advice is rather misplaced since it really feels you completely mistook the direction and intent of my comments. My pointing out Eileen's backstory was interesting and rather good (by FT standards) does not equate to saying Eileen is a good character - hell, I literally just said in my comments on this page that Eileen being a *bad* character is why her having an interesting backstory still can't compel Blackjack and I to care about Eileen. Like him, I can say Eileen's backstory was good (relatively speaking) and *still* find her a bullshit Mary Sue character, and I already have illustrated my personal reasons for such above; I honestly don't see any reason for why you think it has to be either one extreme (hate it all) or the other (like/defend it all). It's precisely because I myself can "look at it for what it is" that I *can't* just pretend like there's zero good elements anywhere - I can't just hate for the sake of hating and say that a bad overall product means you should ignore when a good element does exist somewhere in it. It's because of those past experiences that you *should* make an effort to note the parts it did something right, if only to illustrate whether the problem was bad ideas or bad execution - put down what actually sucks but acknowledge what genuinely doesn't.
And likewise, by tossing theories to justify it around for the hell of it/just for fun doesn't equate to me finding what was done acceptable or even a good storytelling move - explaining why someone did something doesn't mean I think their actions are less idiotic; it's just me giving observations/a running commentary, and how you took that as me defending Eileen's actions as intelligent, let alone good, is something *I don't get* (especially considering how many times I specifically called Eileen's actions arrogant and thoughtless and a repeat of all other FT villains in the most barefaced way possible). Simply put, it's rather that I think you have *very badly misunderstood* my standards, considering my repeated statements that FT is one of the worst manga I've ever read and nowadays only read it to laugh at it's idiocy - that's not going to change just because I occasionally find (comparatively) good parts of it or will analyze why a stupid character did a stupid thing, anymore then it would for Blackjack.
Long story short… don’t take this the wrong way Ryo, but literally all I did was say one single part of a character (their backstory) was good (though the character herself was bad), present theories and observations about what the logic behind a character's actions were (without ever once saying that logic was ever anything but lunacy, idiocy or arrogance to the point of idiocy and even called it out as being dumb cliched actions on their part), and say that I found a good element in what I've said for ages is one of the worst manga out there story-wise. All of which in turn makes your “advice” (especially regarding my standards being to find good what you find mediocre when most chapters I tear the series apart on) feel kinda insulting at best and condescending at worst, since… well honestly speaking, I almost feel you'd have to ignore just about every damn thing I've ever said here to come to a conclusion as far off the mark as you did ^_^;
DeleteHonestly, I wrote long comments so the guy replying, don't have to revisit everything xD but whatever, it seems to backfire nowadays.
DeleteYes, it seems you are correct, I may have mistaken your explanations for approval or rather disapproval of our criticism of the series. And purpose of calling you out was because I wanted you to clarify yourself. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
However, my advice, which I didn't mean to present as insulting and again I apologize for that, still stands that it's acceptable to analyze the series in a way that you do but the problem occurs when you present these explanations to people around these parks. We differ in standards and in our methods of analyzing things, so when you are interacting with us, I suggest that you need to be aware of this whenever you to try to explain things to us. Because, no offence, most of us don't really wanna hear someone make sense out of a nonsensical character when all of us, including yourself, agree that it's all bullshit anyway. But by all means, explain away! But be aware of the other guy's mindset.
As for us, especially myself, hating it for the sake of hating, I believe there is some truth in that. But apparently the series have reached the point where it is justified to overall look at it in a negative way or rather one is wasting his breath trying to call this out because as you stated, the pitiful state of FT is undeniable. People that hang around here, are kinda of a lost cause in regard to hoping that FT might give us something worth our while. I'm only reading this series because it was awesome in some of the early arcs but now it's garbage and I only want to see this old friend of mine, die and be put out of its misery.
^^ Well tbh, I only started reading comments since when ah, I think when Neinhart was introduced? While I have seen you being critical, I just didn't find much intensity when you tore a chapter apart but there was definitely a lot of it when you presented a positive analysis. Which I understand, finding a diamond in a pile of mud, has a lot of value I suppose (except with difference in standards, I only find coal, and I don't really wanna go with effort of producing a diamond out of it). I think that threw me off the mark because it gave an impression that you are an optimist among a group of cynical commentators. But you aren't much different from us it seems, except that you just like to detail it all before tearing the chapter apart, compared to us who like to skip the details and go directly with hating it.
But yeah, we're cool.
...you're still not answering the question, though. How does explaining why they did something equate to agreeing with the brand of logic used in it? More then once, Blackjack himself has taken the time to talk about what reason a character is doing a dumb thing, yet has not been criticized or mistaken for seeing it as anything other then dumb. Exactly what is the difference, here?
DeleteThat's just basically saying you don't want it done because *you personally* don't like anyone trying to be objective/give anything out but pure hate for the series. I just don't feel your advice can stand as anything else but still being condescending because it *still* feels like you're talking down to me for seeing *anything* other then the bad or commenting on it in any other way then up-front bashing.
Like I said, it's because there's already more then enough to bash in this series that deserves it that I see no point bashing the things that don't - or in treating everything with such immense anger as opposed to the literal joke it's become. I'd rather save my anger for things I actually feel deserve it; genuine BS like that dumbass fight with Natsu and Gray ten chapters back, or Makarov's out-of-nowhere death eight chaps back, or the inane fanservice inserts everywhere you turn, or whatever BS friendship spiel I just know is going to be used to make Eileen bite it next chapter. I'm not hanging around here because I think there's any hope for the series - I'm here because I just like picking apart bad series; simple as that ^_^. You on the other hand... I would actually have thought the opposite - you'd think once loving this series would make you *more* likely to talk about what could have been done to make it live up to the potential it once had, not rail at it to the point of doing nothing else.
... and quite frankly, if you believe that about me, you couldn't have been here even just when Neinhart was around - because you wouldn't have missed this where I literally tore apart five different chapters (and once again, anything "positive" I said was just regarding what *I* would have personally done to make it better, not that what was done was good):
http://blackjackrants.blogspot.com/2016/10/fairy-tail-alvarez-arc-review-chapter.html
So even if we're cool, I still don't know if you really get where I came from yet ^_^;
Unfortunately my friend :), this time, you have missed my point.
DeleteConsider this as a reply to your other comment as well. First of all, I stated it quite clearly that you present your explanations by all means, I'm not talking you down about that. But you need to CONSIDER YOUR AUDIENCE. I have written over 4000+ words essays on other forums about things I dislike about FT and comprehensive explanations with it. I don't do that here. Wanna know why? Because unlike here, other forums are full of people that don't share my conclusions. I need to explain it to them. But here, I don't need to do that because everyone here is already on the same page. Explaining myself here isn't needed but rather is a waste of the time leading someone with an explanation that ends with the same conclusion they already are agreeing with.
As for the minor points like why Blackjack isn't called out for his explanation. I stated it before, you should type LIKE YOU USUALLY DO when you are writing your own comment. Blackjack does not reply with big explanations to others, in fact, his explanations are very concise and straight to the point because just like the rest of us, he confirms that the series overall doesn't deserve that much attention. Though his original post does ask of him to be more comprehensive, which again I refer back to saying that you CAN do the same with your comment, it's the replies I'm talking about because audience are to be considered (and again unlike you, his audience may include people who DO need the explanation but the people you reply to AREN'T those people).
Second point being about my TL:DR advice. I only make you an exception. I do 'aim for the neck' but the problem is that, in order to do that, your 'neck' requires more than a concise response, otherwise, as you implied, I don't do that with others here.
And no, we're not cool anymore until we reach an understanding.
Delete*activates his aura*
No; that's still you - because simply put, the fact I consider my audience is *precisely why* I elaborate things the way I do.
DeleteHonestly, it does still feel like you're talking down to me because you're basically telling me to *curtail my opinions to suit your tastes.* Doesn't matter how much you say that's not the case - that's still how you come across. In turn, I shouldn't have to refrain from being observatory or objective just because, to be frank, you don't want to hear it. If you don't want to acknowledge a different opinion or hear a reason for disliking something that's different from your own reasons... just don't read it. It shouldn't have to be that you feel a need to demand someone censor their opinions to suit your own tastes :P This is a *review site* - the whole point of it is for a reader to look at what it did right and wrong and offer personal opinion/insight on it. The sites you described are more about justifying it as correct or incorrect to a bunch of others *as opposed* to offering a personal observation of opinion - and explaining why my opinion is as it is doesn't violate that.
That's all to say nothing of the fact that... well, honestly put, it's pretty darn presumptive to assume "everyone here is already on the same page" when even Blackjack himself seemed to disagree with the severely of your opinions (that is to say, it's kinda arrogant to not only assume everyone shares the exact same opinion, but that said shared opinion is or has to be your own or one you agree with). Hell, Blackjack actually said he *agreed* with me on a lot of my points and that they fell in line with his own conclusions - he just didn't bother to go into detail like I did. Plus, IDK if you noticed... but the only reason I'm doing this now is because of *you* and your own textblocks giving me so much to have to reply to at once. I mean... simply put, it seems like the only reason you come at me and not Blackjack, even though we seem to share a lot of the same beliefs... is just because I talk more? That doesn't seem like a very valid reason to be so disagreeable with my opinions over his ^_^;
Again, my issue with the "aim for the neck" approach is that, all too often, it ends up getting flack from people - I mean even if my original comment had been "Eileen may be a bad character but her backstory isn't that bad"... you still would have argued that with me demanding justification because you insist on seeing *everything* in FT as shit and nothing else, and we still would have ended up where we are.
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DeleteAlso, just a side note... but the text-blocks usually aren't this big; that only happened because of the "five in one" chapter reviews FT hit that gave me a lot to address at once, plus the subjects in Eileen's backstory offered a fair bit more to talk about compared to the simple inanity that FT normally has... along with things so off-the-walls retarded like Rekhied/Lacarde's henti powers that just beg to be ranted about at length.
DeleteSigh.
DeleteYour assumptions about me are rather weak and uncalled for. But for the sake of not crossing a line, I'll overlook and let my previous comments speak for themselves, letting others judge what you claim to be true.
It seems this is where we conclude our discussion because it no longer proves fruitful to me it seems.
Oh.....and one last thing.....No, the assumption that I 'still would have argued' is wrong. And suppose even if I did ask for your explanation, on my own request, I would have just read it and...well just be on my merry way.
Anyway, thank you for your time.
No offense, but I point to your original comment where you made nothing but assumptions about me. I on the other hand said what it *felt* like you were doing/*sounded* like you were saying, not that any of it is actually what you were trying to say or illustrate. So please don't start resorting to insults - especially over something as not worth it as FT :P
DeleteLike I said, your previous comments really feel like, at best, they miss the point of what I say, and at worst come across like telling me not to say what I think I should just because you and others don't like reading it - even when just not reading it is a valid option.
And on that "last thing"... no yourself XD. By that, I mean that when I made my comment, your first instinct was to reply with something just as long. You disagreed with my opinion that Eileen's backstory wasn't bad like her character was - based on how the following discussions went, that honestly doesn't look like it would have changed even if it was a simple one-sentence line. Moreover, the fact you took the time to reply like that at all doesn't suggest "be on (your) merry way" would have been an option either.
Look... it isn't even like this is something worth being so mad at me for, dude. I hate FT as much as the next person - it's a sucky manga that has a lot of wasted potential. I just that I don't see the point in saying so without saying why - or without acknowledging that wasted potential doesn't mean it couldn't have been good if there was a *proper* writer at the head. I also don't see the point of treating every part of it like garbage when I should rightly save that for the REAL shit moments the series has offered and has yet to offer. And usually, I don't break out into big text-blocks unless it's something actually worthwhile for it - usually one block of text is enough to sum up what I think of any given chapter.
DeleteHope that clears things up.
Weak and uncalled assumptions again it seems. But it doesn't matter. I'm not mad or anything. I end my discussions on FT just like that because it's as you and I stated, it ain't worth it in the end.
DeleteI do however seek second opinion about what you said about me. Which is obviously something you can't offer (Obviously because it has to come from someone else LOL).
Though the reply is unsatisfactory, I insist again that discussion is over. There is no need for either of us to clarify anything any further.
So yes, have a good day.
Except that, again, I *wasn't* accusing you of anything. I am telling you how I *felt*/what it sounded like *in my opinion* and never once said that was what you intended to say. This is the same misunderstanding as before - you're taking my opinions as an accusation/statement of fact.
DeleteThink of it this way - you round the corner and knock someone over. To the person who got knocked over (me), it comes across as purposeful, even though I know it really wasn't. That's about the most generalized I can make it to try and illustrate that, honestly speaking, you are getting upset at me over literally nothing.
As I said before, this really isn't something that required getting so serious with me about; just because I reserve anger for the worst parts and note the (few) good things doesn't require a massive argument about which way is "right" or not.
Long story short; I just don't want to let negative feelings stand when I honestly think they're unfounded.
DeleteSorry if it's flooding the comments; just hate it if I think someone has a wrong idea about things I say :P
DeleteI'll reply one last time.
Delete1. I did not say you are accusing me of anything. I do not care if you think otherwise.
2. I am not taking your opinions as statement of fact.I do not care if you think otherwise.
3. I am not upset at you. I do not care if you think otherwise.
4. I am not getting serious with you. I do not care if you think otherwise.
5. Just because I write harsh comments, does not mean I am angry nor do I expect you to be angry about anything. I do not care if you think otherwise.
6. There is no negative feelings here. Just lack of any feelings in general. The discussion does not interest me anymore. This is why I don't care if you think otherwise because we're not in a discussion anymore.
7. What I do expect of you is to give it a rest already :P.
So will I (hardwired to reply when addressed; not your fault)
Delete1. No offense, but you said "Weak and uncalled assumptions" right to my face; how else was I to interpret that but as you saying I was making accusations like they were, that you were angry about it and treated it as a serious issue?
2. Ok... bit of a pet-peeve of mine... but I really hate it when people say "I don't care" in a conversation they care enough about to reply to; obviously you do care or else you wouldn't be here. And I wasn't trying to drive anyone away, either.
3. It's like you said before, though; hard to see things as being cool until this is resolved... and it didn't feel like it was :P
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